Black Crawling Systems Archive Release 1.0

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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- = = - WELCOME TO THE PREMIER ISSUE OF - = = - -=>PHANTASY<=- - = = - A MONTHLY PUBLICATIOM AND NEWSLETTER OF - = = - THE - = INTERNATIONAL = - INFORMATION - = RETREIVAL = - GUILD - = = -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Volume Number One, Issue Number One Dated 10/31/90 Table of Discontents: [1] The IIRG meets the FBI (Part 1) [2] What is The IIRG and why should I support it? [3] PHANTASY NEWS [4] Listing of PHANTASY Distribution Sites OFFICIAL DISLAIMER... All information in PHANTASY is from USER contributed material The Publishers and Editors of PHANTASY and THE IIRG disclaim any liability from any damages of any type that reader or user of information contained within this newsletter may encounter from the use of said information. PHANTASY is (C) 1990 by The IIRG IIRG and INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD is (C) 1982 Editors Note- For Printing PHANTASY uses a 50 line page format by 80 Columns -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 1-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= THE INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD MEETS THE FBI (PART ONE) The following is a translation of a tape of the IIRG's meeting with the Federal Bureau of Investigations. The IIRG attended this meeting with a local users group. Some portions have been deleted to protect the members of the groups Identity and some Handles have been changed to further protect those identities. Some handles are still correct as these members did not request anonymity. We would offer the date of this meeting but do not feel it is prudent as this would further risk some members to scrutiny. EDITORS NOTE- Please do not scream about the translation of the FBI Agents portions. This is the way he actually talked and we have brought it directly to text-form. Following a introduction by the President of the Local Users Group this is the way the meeting proceeded. FBI AGENT- I have a lot of information here, but first I'd like to thank (DELETED) and the (DELETED) for inviting me here tonight. Its a chance to share some information and maybe give you all some insight of maybe what we do know and what we don't know, and maybe relate a couple of cases the FBI's been involved in. There are not a whole lot, the ahhh law that governs computer crime has only been on the books since 1984, I think ahhh that Connecticut is one of the first states to ahhh, have a computer oriented law, ahhh as (DELETED) mentioned my name is BILL ATKINSON and I'm a special agent with the FBI and I'm assigned with the Hartford resident angency. I have a background in law enforcement, I spent nine and a half in Washington D.C. on the police department and I've been with the FBI since 1984. I dont have a computer background and you'll know that, That after i get done and you ask me one question and it just wipes me out right there. OLD TIMER- (ROBUST LAUGH) FBI AGENT- The cases that our office has been involved in, They have used computer experts from Washington D.C., out of the Washington field office. I think they have two, who are court certified computer experts -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 2-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= FBI AGENT- So that lets you know as far as law enforcemaent goes its a, It's a brand new ball game, Ahhh I know the case I'm gonna tell you about or one of them. They had a whole room full of disks, Whatever the big brown tapes are. They had a whole room full of them. They needed a computer expert just to figure out what the evidence was that the seized. WHOLE ROOM- (LAUGHTER) FBI AGENT- Computer crime, the way it looks. Is going to affect everyone a lot more than your common neighborhood bank robberies. They last forever and ever and once they're detected, the people who are involved in it really don't want to report it. And the costs of changing the policies that allowed it to happen are just astronomical. We can see that with the Pratt and Whitney, different segments of government contract bidding. It's just astronomical the amount of money that it costs the taxpayers. It probably could pay my salary for at least six months anyway. OLD TIMER- (Extremely Sadistic laugh) FBI AGENT- Maybe when I get done you'll see at least what the FBI is trying to do, I'll try to touch the motives that generates the computer crime and the problems that it creates, and the problem it creates for the people trying to solve the crimes. First let me say that we are an asset that probably every segment of United States society can use the FBI. There are a lot of people who don't know just how helpful we can be. They think that if they call the FBI, they're gonna be recorded and theres gonna be a dossier opened on you immediatly. Some of the phone calls we get shold be recorded just for the pure craziness of them all. But don't hesitate, that if on your job site or somewhere down the line you come across something that appears to be suspicious or just out of the ordinary. Or some information that will help one of the people in our office. We have accountants who work white collar crime, we've had a couple of guys who worked on the Pratt and Whitney, STANGER case, which I'll get into later, who keep pretty much in touch with the people in Washington as to whats going on. But theres always someone out there that has a new wrinkle, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 3-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= FBI AGENT- I'm sure theres a few people in this room, Whats the term? HACKERS, that come across things the rest of the country doesn't know is out there. And with Every crime, every computer crime, you probably have the Fraud By Wire Statutes that is violated and the Interstate Transportation of stolen property, bank fraud, embezzelment, and mail fraud. There all tied in, and where you might think where theres just a computer problem, it might go on and be a whole interstate system thats being worked, and it happens. It happened recently in Texas, we had some people along the whole SouthWest United States that was just being bounced from one system to another. It took them months and months to figure out and then they decided not to prosecute. So there might be something you'd like to give us or you might not want to get involved, or at least if you want to use us as a sounding board, feel free to do that. I know one of the things the agent who gave me this information said "Tell them about a definition of computer crime" So I went back to my books, I went back to Quantico two years ago, and I remembered one of the instructers down there said "I'm gonna give you a definition" So lets start out by saying, Really Computer Crime isn't really Computer Crime It's just a crime where a Computer happened to be in the Room With that, everyone looks like wheres this guy coming from? Nobodys gonna actully say the computer commited the crime! So we had figured this guy had punched one too many buttons along the way and had lost touch with reality. I don't know if you can consider the computer the criminal or the person programming the computer the criminal. Once the crime has been defined, if we're notified about one and determine whats been stolen or whats been altered or manipulated, We can pretty well tell who committed the crime. That parts the easy part. There will be instances where you know whats been done, and you know who did it. But as you are aware of, computer programs and manipulations you can do with computers, it's very difficult to prove a certain person commited the crime. Thats where I guess the problem lies in this day and age Its not knowing whats been done or knowing who did it, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-END PAGE 4-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- FBI AGENT- Its being able to prove it. And what we know with these laws being on the books for two years, there is no case law and every time one of these cases goes to court its a whole new baliwick for the judge, the prosecuters, and the defense attornys. Theres no, NO precedent has been really set as to whats evidence, whats real evidence, are copies evidence? In federal court, copies can't be admitted as evidence. So a computer printout? Is the printout the evidence? Is the computer the evidence? Is the programmer the evidence? And every time you go to court in a different district you have a different opinion. KNIGHTHACK- So if your gonna do it, Do it now? FBI AGENT- Yeah, do it while theres still time to figure out what the solution is....By the way, Your name please?? WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter) FBI AGENT-When are you going to commit this crime? KNIGHTHACK- Tommorrow! FBI AGENT- Thats true, thats what the whole problem is. They've been passed, all the laws have been passed by the legislators and haven't been interpeted yet by the judges What little case law there is can change with every different program that comes up, because as the computer gets more refined, So do the crimes. What was a murder yesterday, is still a murder tommorrow, But what was a computer crime today, wasn't yesterday, and probably won't be tommorrow. I'm sure you can all think up different things you'd like to do, or in your case (POINTING AT KNIGHTHACK), have done and a WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter) KNIGHTHACK- I'm leaving now. FBI AGENT- Just the imagination, you can look at the different computer games, I have a case I'm trying to work on, COMPUTER PIRACY Just one of the computer boards themselves that are going into the games, and they say thats rather simple. Because you can look at a certain format and know the person, who put it together. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 5-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= FBI AGENT- And he basically initials the work by the way he puts it together. But now if he looks at it and you look at it, you would all say "Yeah you can tell thats what was done" But if you give it to a jury to look at, that doesn't know input from output, they would have no idea who put this transistor here. WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter) FBI AGENT- Are transistors still used, I don't know MERCENARY- AHHH, Not to often. WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter) FBI AGENT- So ahhh, thats the whole problem, another problem we have, I dont know if its as big a problem now as when, Oh I don't know you can tell me, with people under the ages of 17 and 16 getting into different databanks and manipulating those systems or just passing information around on the BBS's or whatever. The ahhh. federal prosecution of anyone under the age of 17 is preety well unheard of, You have to get a specific request from the Department of Justice and a United States Attorny is gonna want to prosecute the case. And it has to be clear to the FBI and everyone else and if it doesn't really happen on the state level, They'll prosecute from 16 and under, They say they will here in Connecticut. But then you look at the crimes themselves and you know whats been done. Just to get into the bank and pass the information Will that be determined to be a crime? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. One agent I know in our office that was working a local case involving an insurance company. Where a High-School student had gained access through getting initialy in the database and then he'd go to bed at night and programmed his computer to go through all the numbers and find the code, When he got up in the morning, Low and Behold, he was in this insurance companies database. Well when he did, he fooled around for a couple of months The Insurance company, (Whose name will go unmentioned), before you all go out and cancel your polocies tommorrow. He was in and out for about two months, and they got a trap on the call and placed him in East Hartford or Manchester area. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 6-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- FBI AGENT- and they really didn't know what to do with it, he really wasn't doing anything but they knew he was coming online, late at night and early in the morning. They were perplexed, How do we stop him, really who is he? Because all they really knew was it was coming back to a telephone in East Hartford or Manchester. Well I guess they got there answer in one short way, he put on a message one morning and lets see what did it say? It went something to this effect, He identified all there customers, and all there insurance users and he wanted a corvette or he would notify all the users the system was unsafe and he had access to all there accounts. Well I guess they sent him back a message, and they went back and forth till they narrowed down who they were dealing with through the telephone company with a trap on the line and they traced it to a specific phone. Anonymous- He shold have waited till they went on strike. Whole Room- (Laughter) FBI AGENT- Then they delivered the corvette and he came to pick it up, and he was only 14 or 15 and couldn't have driven anyway But they said shame on you and don't do it again, he was scared MERCENARY- A good little slap on the wrist. FBI AGENT- And now he's probably 18 or whatever and shooting for a rolls KNIGHTHACK- No, now he's probably in the FBI's Computer. FBI AGENT- Yeah, thats probably right, now thatcase was easy, that was extortion, he made a demand, then said what he was going to do and he was going to try to hurt there business. So in that case, they had extortion and had he been over 17 they could have prosecuted him easily. ANONYMOUS- Almost more effective than a gun! FBI AGENT- Yes, It really is when your dealing with the millions they're dealing with and the amount of loss they could under go. If they decided to go with the prosecution, that would have -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 7-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- FBI AGENT- been easy. But since he was that age and they didn't even do that, Now had he done something less extreme or more extereme, whatever the case may be. What would they have done with him? Thats still the question. Theres never been a computer crime in Connecticut and thats one of the bolder statutes as far as computer crime goes. One of the problems investigators have encounterd when facing computer crime is just what I said, What laws have been violated, I know if a high-school hacker gains access to a database, Whats the worth? Thats what prosecuters look for. How much did he get? Can the penalty be equal or greater than what he obtained? Did the person really obtain anything? If he hurts you business or causes you to use a computer analyist to try to track him down? He's hurt the company but not made any monetary gain? Thats what they'll still be looking at until they finally put a few experts into an area, Computer experts like yourselves that say hey and become police officers or investigators and can attack the problem where it is, and it is a problem. Until they do that they'll have guys like me or other ex-policeman or accountants who will have to take the word of everybody else and basically hope and pray they guess correctly on how were gonna catch the persons doing it. I know theres gotta be all different kinds of ways to corrupt the system and one of the biggest problems, that movie, ahhh about the kid who got into.. KNIGHTHACK- Wargames? FBI AGENT- Thats one of the biggest fears especially with the FBI going to computer files and computer finger-print systems. The fedreal government has all its pricing statistics and bids on computer also. So if you can imagine a 15 or 16 year old on his computer all night, imagine the professional criminal or the proffessional spy or whatever, he has his whole life, eight hours a day and he gets paid and if he wants to put in overtime thats a free shot. And if you have to figure, for every program written theres somebody who can figure it out, because someone had to put it in the computer. ANONYMOUS- No system is 100 per cent foolproof. if somone wants to work hard and long enough, he can get in any system. FBI AGENT- Yes, Right but what do you do when he gets in?? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 8-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- That Ends Part one of: THE IIRG MEETS THE FBI Be sure to get next months issue for the conclusion. |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| | PHANTASY FEATURE ARTICLE TWO: | | | | THE | | INTERNATIONAL | | INFORMATION | | RETREIVAL | | GUILD | | | | What is it, and why should I support it | | | |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The International Information Retreival Guild is a group of hackers, who are still bonded together in the earliest traditions of the art. We ask for No money, No contributions and the only thing we've ever charged for, are the costs of disks or tapes. We believe that the Guild should be supported by its actions and that if individuals are happy with our performance, voluntary contributions will follow. We are once again happy to join the mainstream hacking community and look forward to communicating with the world once more. The IIRG has been almost silent for three years now, but several members after reviewing present conditions have reactivated the group. We hope those of you who do remember us, and those of you who would like to come to know us and communicate with us will do so. Listed at the end of this issue will be several BBS systems where we we can be contacted and where PHANTASY will be distributed. Since this issue has been a little rushed, and we have not had much time to prepare for our new resurgence more information will be forthcoming in following issues. We hope to bring you all the hacking and phreaking news possible as well as programming, and insider reports. Most of our former contacts with several larger computer companies are still in place and we hope to be bringing you there inside dirt as to whats going on. So enjoy our forthcoming issues and we hope to be hearing from you... The IIRG-1990 -=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=End Page 9=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PHANTASY NEWS...... Well as we stated we've not had much time to prepare but here's what we do have for now... Date-Line Nov 6th through 15th Microsoft to hold free WINDOWS computing Seminars in the following cities on the following dates.... Nov 6-Hartford, Ct.-9am to 11:30am-Ramada Inn, Meriden, 275 Research Pkwy Nov 8-Denver, CO-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the Westin Hotel Tabor Center, 1672 Lawrence St. Nov 8-Dallas Texas-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the Southland Center Hotel, 400 N. Olive St. Nov 13-Minneapolis, MN-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the Radisson Hotel Metrodome, 615 Washington Ave S. E. Nov 15-Detroit, MI-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the Westin Hotel Detroit, Renaissance Center Date-Line Nov 12th through January 9th, 1991 VMS Systems Security V5 Seminars to be held at Nov 12-14 Denver, Co at the Digital Training Center 212-702-4300 December 3-5 San Diego, CA at the Humphreys 1/2 Moon Inn 619-224-3411 January 7-9 Boston MA at the Bay Back Hilton 617-236-1100 We hear the course fee is $995 and is 3 days long One of our members was able to get in for free by lurking around back in October and tells us the Seminar offers an: 1.Overview of System Security 2.Security Threats discussion covering: (User-based attacks, Operating system penetration, trap doors, worms, viruses Trojans and Indirect Hacker attacks) 3.Type of Security Controls 4.Log in Controls 5.Files and Other Protection -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 10-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 6.Security Implemenatation Methods 7.Security Auditing 8.VAXcluster Security A listing of DEC's DECnet-Vax Network security seminars will be forthcoming in the next issue. PHANTASY DISTRIBUTION SITES This is the List of BBS's that will be carrying Phantasy as of October 31, 1990... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Rune Stone BBS IIRG NODE #1 203-485-0088 1200/2400 Baud -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lightning Systems 1200/2400 Baud 414-363-4282 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prismatic Sphere 1200/2400 Baud 518-372-8045 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Northeast Survival BBS 1200/2400 Baud 216-442-0879 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MiniHost BBS 1200/2400 Baud 203-496-9183 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like your BBS to be a distributor of Phantasy Call The Rune Stone and State so in Feedback to Sysop May Odin Guide Your way.... The IIRG-10/90 End This Issue............. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-